Episode 54: “Eclipse” Book Discussion

1. Wray Said,

   Hey Guys!

   Sometimes I wish I was in on the discussion because what I have left is playing Devil’s Advocate. Oh, well..

   Let’s just talk about the gender stereotypes/anti-feminism issue. The Twilight series is primarily interested in exploring these areas and the “what if’s” of a romance where the stakes are MUCH HIGHER than usual. First of all, Edward is a vampire. This is a really big deal. Yes, vampirism is used as a metaphor, but in this series it’s also treated as REAL. So one could see Edward and Jacob’s discussions and protectiveness as objectification. OR one could see it as two supernatural beings who value Bella as she is and who value (and miss) being human, and who feel that they might value it a bit more than Bella. Jacob, in particular, as the story progresses becomes more and more desperate (and subsequently more and more of a jerk) that Bella sees she has a viable choice.

   From their perspective, Bella is a fragile creature whose life could be snuffed out so easily that they resort to being overly protective. And Bella (yea Bella) rightly pushes hard against this infantilization. But that’s not to say that they don’t have a point. Personally, if my best friend in the whole world was making a choice that I believed would end his/her life as we know it to become something “other”, I might not be so politically correct as to tell them “hey, it’s your choice”. Especially, if they would lose their family, friends, etc. Bella, on the other hand, has EVERY RIGHT to say “this is my choice” and she does. Where the gray area come in is that she doesn’t want to lose Jacob, but she doesn’t truly understand the depth of her feelings and it becomes complicated. Again these are not perfect people – none of them. They are written as good people, though. In the end, Edward is much quicker to learn his lessons with regard to Bella. It’s much harder for Jacob to let go. I think it’s easy to forget that it’s Bella who teaches them all. In her journey of personal discovery, she ends up teaching both Edward and Jacob a thing or two – about making choices, caring for others, strength of character.

   Regarding gender differences in the series, I am conflicted. On the one hand, there is nothing wrong with taking care of people if that is what comes naturally. On the other hand, it shouldn’t necessarily be expected or forced upon an individual based on gender expectations. I don’t see that happening in Bella’s family. Charlie is grateful, but perfectly happy with or without a homemade supper. She enjoys doing it. I could say more, but I must get some work done

2. Wray Said,

   Another point: Rosalie does not blame what happened to her on her beauty itself. She blames society’s value on beauty. Her parents see it as an asset, a way to acquire what they want. Her fiance sees her as a collectible and a way to conceal what HE really is. And finally, she realizes that it was a roadblock to getting what she really wanted – someone to see her for who she was or even to value her in spite of her excesses. She has fallen prey to vanity after all… but I don’t think she really blames herself. Otherwise she wouldn’t have taken revenge. I kinda love Rosalie’s story because she has this great, tragic, ghost story of a flashback; she’s quite aware of her own shallowness; yet she’s quite unapologetic about it.

3. Wray Said,

   I haven’t noticed that the Cullen men are particularly protective of “their women”. Alice, Rosalie and Esme all fight alongside the men without any particular mention. Bella is the only person who seems to be worried about any of them getting hurt (women or men). Is all this based on one photo of the movie that we haven’t even seen in context?

   Leah ends up getting in trouble not because she’s female, but because of the massive (and totally understandable) chip on her shoulder. Seth is no better of a fighter, but he IS acting as a team with Edward. They have a plan and they work their plan. Leah feels that she has something to prove and tries to act alone.

   As far as Bella’s insecurity about her appearance…it’s rampant throughout the series – especially Twilight. In fact, during that first book, it’s mentioned numerous times. It plays a major role in New Moon when Bella assumes a “knew this would happen” pose during the infamous break-up scene and later when they are reunited. I suppose it can be annoying when you want your heroine to behave in a particular way, but this is precisely why I admire her like I admire my own daughter. In a world of ridiculously plucky, witty, savvy role models she is all too “human”. She’s comparing herself to an impossible standard – a creature made to attract it’s prey with every wile – and she IS the prey. Of course she is going to feel inferior and if she did not it would be completely unbelievable. Given what I said earlier about society with regards to beauty and Rosalie, who among us hasn’t felt we’re not quite up to standard? We are, after all, in Bella’s head so it makes sense that we would hear things that she may only admit to a best friend or to no one. I can only say that, to my daughter, it was a relief that she wasn’t the only one who felt a bit less than model-gorgeous and that it doesn’t mean anything in the long run – it’s completely normal to feel insecure sometimes.

4. Shannon the Movie Moxie Said,

   Wow, that is a lot of food for thought there Wray!

   Interesting, I never thought of the series being seen from the perspective of high-stakes romance. That’s compelling.

   With the protectiveness/objectiveness… it’s an interesting debate. For me I hear the different sides of the arguments but I feel really strongly about people knowing what is right for them and being able to get it. I think holding someone back from this instead of supporting them through it, is wrong. It’s one of my base values and I won’t waver on it. No one can know what you want other than you. If it’s a bad choice, so be it – you’ll learn from your mistake but it will be your mistake. Also, them ‘missing’ being human and therefore living humaness vicariously through her also creeps me out. She’s not a pet nor a child – she’s her own person and should live her life or existence how she sees fit.

   I do Eclipse for the fact that it does show the most growth in all of the characters, at least so far. I don’t remember BD well enough if they learn more there. This one seems to have the most back stories and personal development.

   On the gender stuff – it’s so hard, so much feels like a double edged sword. But, a lot of peoples powers align to their personalities, and sometimes, but not always, those reinforce gender stereotypes. But sometimes they break them too – Carlisle is clearly compassionate for one. Jane inflicts pain, etc.

   On Rosalie, I have to disagree though. She says “It took some time before I began to blame the beauty for what had happened to me – for me to see the curse of it. To wish that I had been… well, not ugly, but normal.” p.162 of the hardcover. That’s close enough to blaming herself that makes it feel gross and uncomfortable to me. Her beauty is a part of her, the most known and reflected part of her that we get. I don’t see how it was a roadblock to getting what she wanted, although it did end her life. She wanted to be loved and have babies – that didn’t seem all that unlikely to happen, and if it was inferred seems off kilter to me. Her beauty is almost the only part of her identity that we are shown. I also have to say that I didn’t find the Royce character believable, that story is pretty awful but also feels a little ludicrous.

   With the women / men fighting… I find it’s very unbalanced. Esme and Rosalie – nothing is really mentioned. They do say that Jasper ‘tries to be everywhere at once’ so that Alice has nothing to do, although it’s done with a warm sense of humour it is still about protecting – although I think this one feels the most balanced. Bella is brave, but often seen as stupid and reckless and needs to be protected.

   Leah is the one I have a problem with – not because of what she did, but because Jacob pushed her away and then took on the fight himself and then got hurt. Why didn’t they work together? Why couldn’t she have fought and got hurt? But mostly, why did Jacob forcibly eject her from the fight? That ain’t cool.

   Seth feigning was a tactic – that’s very true. I don’t remember him working with Edward on that, but totally could be the case due to the psychic thing.

   Then there is Bree – which I’m sure we’ll get to eventually.

   All in all with a lot of these things it can be looked at from many ways, but a lot of it is choices. It’d be so great to have a straight-up strong woman somewhere in there, like Emmett is. It’s a world where that isn’t a barrier, so everything in there is a choice.

   Great point about us hearing what’s in Bella’s head and the normalness of feeling insecure. I never thought of it that way, and that is totally legit. I try not to give her a hard time with that one

5. Sia Said,

   Hey girls,
   I’m sorry I didn’t really agree with anything said on the show completely ! But you have some really great points and things that have me think. But I just wanted to share my opinions on the other things.
   Ok you talked about the characters doing things they wouldn’t do. I think it made sense for them to do things out of the ordinary especially in this world. We all do things that we wouldn’t normally do but I understand some of the choices they made.
   And I think maybe the Bella was flat as a character because this book was very plot driven compared to the other two which were more character driven but I read somewhere that Stephenie leaves her blank sometimes so we could better project ourselves on her.
   I do agree with you that the boys protecting her at all times does get old BUT I think it’s necessary for the story.
   Bella whining and annoying ? I’m so tired of this statement. Maybe it’s just me but I only found her annoying once. And what teenager doesn’t do this ? I’m sorry Bella did pretty good for someone who’s had her life threatened many times and I appreciate that aspect of her insecurities. I wish I could tell you at the age of 18 that I would never complain or cry but imagine vampires and werewolves. I couldn’t do it. I understand there are other stronger female heroines in other books but that doesn’t mean Bella isn’t strong in her own way.
   Bella’s pros really do out weight her cons. I can’t help it I love her
   And I don’t agree with Breaking Dawn being written the worse. It might be the story people hate the most but Stephenie’s writing for me as improved and for a mom who doesn’t have any writing experience I’m very impressed ! And when you talk about Breaking Dawn please think of our perspectives on why we love it PLEASE just don’t trash it I know it’s your opinions but please keep us in mind.
   What I love about these books is that there simple and easy to get into the world. Everyone has a different reading level and for those who hate reading it’s brought pleasure back into reading.
   I loved the Bree book and learned a whole lot and appreciated the vampire side within the book. So I can’t wait to hear your opinion on it ! I really love the show and your humor and witty comments are AWESOME !
   Love you guys.
   Sia

6. Shannon the Movie Moxie Said,

   Thanks for the comment Sia and sharing your perspective! I’m with you on Bella – I don’t find her that whiny or annoying. She’s in a trying situation and I think she does a great job. In this one – I’m harsh on the boys

   I think she’s a unique character, and I’m trying to decide if I think she’s a heroine. I have to think about that one – and probably won’t be able to answer til I re-read Breaking Dawn. Wow, very surprized to hear that you think Breaking Dawn is better written. Wow. I don’t agree. I felt like it needed a lot of editing, and a lot was filler (not the Jacob part.. just in general). I feel like she probably had to get it out in the world earlier than it was ready. The new one was better written though.

   I do agree that they are easy to get in the world of through reading. In fact – these books are one of the reasons I started actively reading again after a huge (like 10 year) hiatus of reading fiction. And I know I’m not alone there!

   I always try to be objective, and I did concede that in Eclipse Edward was much more of a stand up guy than I wanted to admit. I’ll try to do the same when reading Breaking Dawn, but I don’t think that discussion will be pretty. I’d love to hear why you love that one. I’m totally mystified by the appeal of it.

7. Wray Said,

   Hey everyone!

   See why when people dismiss the Twilight Series as fluff, it’s questionable whether or not they have read it…? Sia, I hear you!

   Shannon, I couldn’t agree more that people need to make their own decisions, mistakes, etc. There’s no question about any of that at all, and I don’t think Ms. Meyer is advocating anything other than that. In fact, isn’t this Bella’s whole argument throughout? I do think, though, that there is no story, no conflict, if everyone comes into the story completely well-rounded. There are those who believe Edward is a “perfect” character, the perfect boyfriend (for example). Can’t agree there! The reason why people love him is his devotion to Bella and his struggle to understand her and see things from her point of view. When I said Jacob and Edward remember and value of being human, that does NOT include living vicariously through Bella. That’s not what I said and just plain weird. I simply meant that they have seen both sides and therefore might be in a better position to advise or at least offer their opinion. And the stakes are higher here than a decision about what career path to follow or whether or not to shave your head – it’s life or death. Ultimately the decision is Bella’s of course, but having been there and had no choice, they feel the need to do whatever they can to help Bella gather all the facts before making this decision. Again they are not perfect characters, many times they (in Eclipse much of this falls on Jacob) go about it all wrong. Ultimately, it seems they both come to the same conclusion and step back and it makes both Edward and Jacob better people…later for Jacob.

   Can’t wait for the Breaking Dawn discussion! That was a tough book. For me, it was something of a crazy quilt. There’s a lot there to talk about, though. There are parts I liked, parts I thought were interesting, parts I didn’t care for at all, some I feel have been largely misunderstood.

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